We were introduced to this basic concept when we moved to Moscow in 1996 and learned that old Russian residences featured a centrally located brick built and ceramic clad stove that extended into the surrounding rooms from its central location. With access to the firebox from several directions it would be fired up during the day and then the fire would be banked during the night and the heated brick and ceramic mass would radiate heat through the night.
Any chance we'll see this article on Green Building Advisor? I suspect it would give rise to an excellent debate. Phase change materials makes more sense to me to minimize overheating, especially in a well insulated home. Thanks Lloyd!
A heat pump water heater would let you fill a tank with hot water for distribution through the house during the day. You’d get the benefit of off-peak use without losing control, and a sanco uses CO2 as the refrigerant.
My parents had those in Germany in a high rise built in the 70's (when nuclear was the future in Germany). They are still in use (even though Germany abandoned nuclear). (1) they are big and must not be obstructed, limiting the room layout. (2) they cannot be cleaned inside and smell like burnt dust when the fan is turned on to circulate hot air. As a result, my mother never turned on the fan, which means that the rooms where warmer at night when then were heating. Are newer one better?
Lived in an old uninsulated apartment for three years in Dublin...the bricks kept us nice and warm, even there (perhaps we were cheating - only one exposed facade). Our storage heater was pretty old but it still had a mechanical control to release air. We left this fully closed during the day and opened it up in the evening when we were there. The heat isn't balanced throughout the day so you do have to get mornings super warm on the colder winter days but you use the extra heat to more effectively dry clothes. Definitely a solution to explore further!
Hi Lloyd — Nightstore heating worked very well here in NZ back in the 1990’s but retail electricity market reform saw the end of low night rates, but the products worked well here. Slightly different in our temperate isles as the sun in winter is a key heating boost during the day, so that fitted well with the low night rate system.
Nova Scotia power makes these units mandatory to access TOD pricing. People will install a unit for the lower night time rate, 11.3 cents, which isn't nearly as generous as OH. The NS gov't will also subsidize the purchase of the units through Efficiency NS. The list linked below has a couple other manufacturers.
Lloyd, perhaps you remember this? TO Hydro had a program where controllers were installed that allowed DHW heating at night (cheap rate time) on their electric HW tanks. I remember tech ripping them out in 2003 - no explanation. (I was manager of NP housing co-op at the time.)
The excess juice at night sold at below cost to the US is caused by the WIND plants overbuilt in Ontario, the Take-Or-Pay contracts and Must Run merit order, NOT the nukes which were built first and long time ago and hydro (ROR or reservoir) which can be modulated. Your point however of taking advantage of the super cheap power option (and it is cheap) via thermal storage MIGHT make sense, depending the usage.
Night store heaters were quite common in the U.K. for a period. I hated them. They had virtually no control and were often too hot when you didn’t really want heat - kind of like any uncontrolled thermal mass that gets charged up with heat. The one you show looks more sophisticated so maybe it has better control.
I would think heating water during off peak periods could be a good way to go. The water could be used for DHW or hydronic radiators as and when needed.
Agree, the older UK models that I grew up with and were common for years were pretty basic.
My 80yo father has just swapped out old ones for the type Lloyd is showing here and is very happy with them. Much better insulated, fan controlled release of heated air. They keep heat contained effectively for a much longer time and provide it on demand.
We were introduced to this basic concept when we moved to Moscow in 1996 and learned that old Russian residences featured a centrally located brick built and ceramic clad stove that extended into the surrounding rooms from its central location. With access to the firebox from several directions it would be fired up during the day and then the fire would be banked during the night and the heated brick and ceramic mass would radiate heat through the night.
Any chance we'll see this article on Green Building Advisor? I suspect it would give rise to an excellent debate. Phase change materials makes more sense to me to minimize overheating, especially in a well insulated home. Thanks Lloyd!
I probably should have put it there in the first place! I have asked my editor to cross-post it.
A heat pump water heater would let you fill a tank with hot water for distribution through the house during the day. You’d get the benefit of off-peak use without losing control, and a sanco uses CO2 as the refrigerant.
My parents had those in Germany in a high rise built in the 70's (when nuclear was the future in Germany). They are still in use (even though Germany abandoned nuclear). (1) they are big and must not be obstructed, limiting the room layout. (2) they cannot be cleaned inside and smell like burnt dust when the fan is turned on to circulate hot air. As a result, my mother never turned on the fan, which means that the rooms where warmer at night when then were heating. Are newer one better?
Lived in an old uninsulated apartment for three years in Dublin...the bricks kept us nice and warm, even there (perhaps we were cheating - only one exposed facade). Our storage heater was pretty old but it still had a mechanical control to release air. We left this fully closed during the day and opened it up in the evening when we were there. The heat isn't balanced throughout the day so you do have to get mornings super warm on the colder winter days but you use the extra heat to more effectively dry clothes. Definitely a solution to explore further!
I agree with Eric M below. A Sanden SanCO2 system could replace your gas system and provide hot water for domestic and radiators.
Hi Lloyd — Nightstore heating worked very well here in NZ back in the 1990’s but retail electricity market reform saw the end of low night rates, but the products worked well here. Slightly different in our temperate isles as the sun in winter is a key heating boost during the day, so that fitted well with the low night rate system.
Nova Scotia power makes these units mandatory to access TOD pricing. People will install a unit for the lower night time rate, 11.3 cents, which isn't nearly as generous as OH. The NS gov't will also subsidize the purchase of the units through Efficiency NS. The list linked below has a couple other manufacturers.
https://www.efficiencyns.ca/tools-resources/guide/ets-system-rebate-guide/
Lloyd, could you connect this q to the value of getting off the natural gas and onto electricity for the other reasons? How is Hydro Quebec tied in?
Lloyd, perhaps you remember this? TO Hydro had a program where controllers were installed that allowed DHW heating at night (cheap rate time) on their electric HW tanks. I remember tech ripping them out in 2003 - no explanation. (I was manager of NP housing co-op at the time.)
The excess juice at night sold at below cost to the US is caused by the WIND plants overbuilt in Ontario, the Take-Or-Pay contracts and Must Run merit order, NOT the nukes which were built first and long time ago and hydro (ROR or reservoir) which can be modulated. Your point however of taking advantage of the super cheap power option (and it is cheap) via thermal storage MIGHT make sense, depending the usage.
Night store heaters were quite common in the U.K. for a period. I hated them. They had virtually no control and were often too hot when you didn’t really want heat - kind of like any uncontrolled thermal mass that gets charged up with heat. The one you show looks more sophisticated so maybe it has better control.
I would think heating water during off peak periods could be a good way to go. The water could be used for DHW or hydronic radiators as and when needed.
Agree, the older UK models that I grew up with and were common for years were pretty basic.
My 80yo father has just swapped out old ones for the type Lloyd is showing here and is very happy with them. Much better insulated, fan controlled release of heated air. They keep heat contained effectively for a much longer time and provide it on demand.
The inability of thermal mass to be turned on or off when appropriate is a problem.