I appreciate Lloyd's work to try to clarify this issue.
I'm not totally satisfied with, "After scanning this research" as evidence. Some of these links don't take you to the studies, so they are effectively voided because the reader can't check them. One of the links that did work, to a Lancet article, states, "other studies have found no such association" of gas stoves with respiratory issues. The older study states that their data "suggest that exposure to gas stoves may be associated with reduced pulmonary function but do not show increases in respiratory illness among children exposed to gas stoves. Understanding of the health effects of these indoor pollutants will be improved by studies quantifying individual exposure to...gas stove combustion products."
It would be useful to find studies that quantify the relative risks, and also studies that show causation rather than correlation, and discuss this.
The real estate crunch necessitated my move to my new place. My current landlords installed a gas stove a few years ago, while I tried to persuade them to install an electric one. But they wouldn't do it, due to the added costs of putting in new electric stuff and their preference for gas. I don't think this is a high health risk for me, but I would like to read more studies. I try to ventilate with open windows and I use a pressure cooker that uses a fraction of the usual energy, and I don't use the gas oven that takes a lot of energy. Hopefully I'll be ok.
So when the power goes out (which happens several times in the winter due to winter storms), that sometime lasts for days. We need to break-out the camp stoves or convert to wood for our meals, while we take cold showers and baths? In other words, camp-out in our own house? Can't go to a motel because they have no power either. My family has used gas for generations with no ill effects.
Sorry, but, I'd rather have instant on gas stoves and water heater than that.
And do not forget about people with gas wells on their property, while the income is not much, most of them have contracts which include unlimited gas usage, which is used for power also.
Another thing to consider, which is far-looking and won't make sense to some, is that if states outlaw gas appliances in the house, pretty soon they will eventually outlaw outside gas appliances also, because of environmental concerns... Also, when gas goes, so goes wood....
This is an area where the govt. should keep their noses out, and let the consumers buy whatever the consumer demands, at least till the infrastructure is improved to where there is 100 percent cheap power 100 percent of the time.
From the abstract for the link above for the headline, "Respiratory Disease Rates and Pulmonary Function in Children Associated with NO2 Exposure":
>>"Measurements taken in the homes for 24-h periods showed that NO2 levels were 4 to 7 times higher in homes with gas stoves than in homes with electric stoves. However, these 24-h measurements were generally well below the current federal 24-h outdoor standard of 100 micrograms/m3."
This is emblematic of almost all of these scaremongering headlines and the absolutely shitty "science" these activist "scientists" are producing today. If a gas stove 24-h NO2 level that's 4-7x that of electric stoves is **STILL** "well below" federal health standards, then what the hell is the brouhaha about? Very convenient not including that in the bit posted here as well—which would have undermined the risks from gas stove-produced NO2.
So no, I don't trust most "science" these days, because when you CRITICALLY THINK whilst reading the abstracts, almost inevitably it's little more than junk science and a plea for more research money to study the "problem" further. It's **always** about needing more money for research though, isn't it?
In addition to the health issues, a desire to cook with gas may motivate people to install gas heating and water heating in new construction. If you feel you must have gas cooking, why not use it for heating and water heating, since the expense of running a gas line into your house is necessary anyway?
If people can be convinced to cook with induction, at least some may forgo gas entirely, with clear climate change benefit.
It depends on how their grid makes electricity, I think. Gas stoves are 3x more energy efficient, I've read, so if the grid is mainly coal-powered, it might not be a good trade for electric.
I'd like to see solar hot water heating used more frequently too.
The amount of energy gas or induction cooktops use is small, so efficiency isn't all that important. And, in any event, the grid everywhere is getting away from coal and gas. The shift to mostly solar and wind, with storage, seems inexorable.
Solar hot water is somewhat out of favor because adding more solar panels and using electricity to heat water is frequently cheaper and always simpler than using sunshine to heat water directly.
Thanks for reply. Induction stoves aren't way more efficient than regular electric stoves, the last I checked. But if I'm wrong, let me know.
Right now, the grid is using mainly natural gas and coal to make electricity, except in select places like where Llloyd lives, I think. So, burning natural gas to make electricity and then using that electricity to cook with causes a big loss of energy compared to burning the gas at the stove.
Solar and wind so far have not demonstrated full-grid capacity--there's nowhere in the world that can do this, and that's still with gasoline cars rather than electric ones. But yes, hopefully, we'll get better at it and maybe replace a lot of power generation with it.
I'm talking about solar thermal hot water, where you use sunlight to heat the water. This is possible in many parts of the US for much of the year.
What I like most about rooftop solar panels is their simplicity. No moving parts, not much, if any, maintenance. Adding more panels to make enough electricity to heat water in a heat pump water heater or an electric resistance water heater is much cheaper than a rooftop solar water heater.
Of course what makes the most sense will vary with location. In Maine, we have full net metering. So we "bank" excess electricity production from May through October and that excess gets credited to our bill in months when our use is greater than our production. So it's' no big deal if the solar panels are covered with snow now and then.
I think solar hot water systems still need another source to heat water for periods when there's been no sun for days. So that adds to the cost and complexity.
Here, peak power demand is in the late afternoon on hot, sunny summer days. So solar is able to substitute for fossil fuel peaker plants, reducing demand from the grid.
I appreciate Lloyd's work to try to clarify this issue.
I'm not totally satisfied with, "After scanning this research" as evidence. Some of these links don't take you to the studies, so they are effectively voided because the reader can't check them. One of the links that did work, to a Lancet article, states, "other studies have found no such association" of gas stoves with respiratory issues. The older study states that their data "suggest that exposure to gas stoves may be associated with reduced pulmonary function but do not show increases in respiratory illness among children exposed to gas stoves. Understanding of the health effects of these indoor pollutants will be improved by studies quantifying individual exposure to...gas stove combustion products."
It would be useful to find studies that quantify the relative risks, and also studies that show causation rather than correlation, and discuss this.
The real estate crunch necessitated my move to my new place. My current landlords installed a gas stove a few years ago, while I tried to persuade them to install an electric one. But they wouldn't do it, due to the added costs of putting in new electric stuff and their preference for gas. I don't think this is a high health risk for me, but I would like to read more studies. I try to ventilate with open windows and I use a pressure cooker that uses a fraction of the usual energy, and I don't use the gas oven that takes a lot of energy. Hopefully I'll be ok.
I see a lot of the links are bad, the Internet archive converted them to links to archived posts. I will spend a bit of time fixing them now.
So when the power goes out (which happens several times in the winter due to winter storms), that sometime lasts for days. We need to break-out the camp stoves or convert to wood for our meals, while we take cold showers and baths? In other words, camp-out in our own house? Can't go to a motel because they have no power either. My family has used gas for generations with no ill effects.
Sorry, but, I'd rather have instant on gas stoves and water heater than that.
And do not forget about people with gas wells on their property, while the income is not much, most of them have contracts which include unlimited gas usage, which is used for power also.
Another thing to consider, which is far-looking and won't make sense to some, is that if states outlaw gas appliances in the house, pretty soon they will eventually outlaw outside gas appliances also, because of environmental concerns... Also, when gas goes, so goes wood....
This is an area where the govt. should keep their noses out, and let the consumers buy whatever the consumer demands, at least till the infrastructure is improved to where there is 100 percent cheap power 100 percent of the time.
Here are a couple of interesting counterarguments to consider:
https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/the-billionaires-behind-the-gas-bans
And, "Bad Stove Science is a Roadblock on the Path to Electrification":
https://thebreakthrough.org/issues/food-agriculture-environment/bad-stove-science-is-a-roadblock-on-the-path-to-electrification?utm_source=Breakthrough+Newsletters&utm_campaign=b43e92794c-BTI_Weekly_1_18_2023_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_49b872540e-b43e92794c-44368141
From the abstract for the link above for the headline, "Respiratory Disease Rates and Pulmonary Function in Children Associated with NO2 Exposure":
>>"Measurements taken in the homes for 24-h periods showed that NO2 levels were 4 to 7 times higher in homes with gas stoves than in homes with electric stoves. However, these 24-h measurements were generally well below the current federal 24-h outdoor standard of 100 micrograms/m3."
This is emblematic of almost all of these scaremongering headlines and the absolutely shitty "science" these activist "scientists" are producing today. If a gas stove 24-h NO2 level that's 4-7x that of electric stoves is **STILL** "well below" federal health standards, then what the hell is the brouhaha about? Very convenient not including that in the bit posted here as well—which would have undermined the risks from gas stove-produced NO2.
So no, I don't trust most "science" these days, because when you CRITICALLY THINK whilst reading the abstracts, almost inevitably it's little more than junk science and a plea for more research money to study the "problem" further. It's **always** about needing more money for research though, isn't it?
/smh
In addition to the health issues, a desire to cook with gas may motivate people to install gas heating and water heating in new construction. If you feel you must have gas cooking, why not use it for heating and water heating, since the expense of running a gas line into your house is necessary anyway?
If people can be convinced to cook with induction, at least some may forgo gas entirely, with clear climate change benefit.
It depends on how their grid makes electricity, I think. Gas stoves are 3x more energy efficient, I've read, so if the grid is mainly coal-powered, it might not be a good trade for electric.
I'd like to see solar hot water heating used more frequently too.
The amount of energy gas or induction cooktops use is small, so efficiency isn't all that important. And, in any event, the grid everywhere is getting away from coal and gas. The shift to mostly solar and wind, with storage, seems inexorable.
Solar hot water is somewhat out of favor because adding more solar panels and using electricity to heat water is frequently cheaper and always simpler than using sunshine to heat water directly.
Thanks for reply. Induction stoves aren't way more efficient than regular electric stoves, the last I checked. But if I'm wrong, let me know.
Right now, the grid is using mainly natural gas and coal to make electricity, except in select places like where Llloyd lives, I think. So, burning natural gas to make electricity and then using that electricity to cook with causes a big loss of energy compared to burning the gas at the stove.
Solar and wind so far have not demonstrated full-grid capacity--there's nowhere in the world that can do this, and that's still with gasoline cars rather than electric ones. But yes, hopefully, we'll get better at it and maybe replace a lot of power generation with it.
I'm talking about solar thermal hot water, where you use sunlight to heat the water. This is possible in many parts of the US for much of the year.
What I like most about rooftop solar panels is their simplicity. No moving parts, not much, if any, maintenance. Adding more panels to make enough electricity to heat water in a heat pump water heater or an electric resistance water heater is much cheaper than a rooftop solar water heater.
Of course what makes the most sense will vary with location. In Maine, we have full net metering. So we "bank" excess electricity production from May through October and that excess gets credited to our bill in months when our use is greater than our production. So it's' no big deal if the solar panels are covered with snow now and then.
I think solar hot water systems still need another source to heat water for periods when there's been no sun for days. So that adds to the cost and complexity.
Here, peak power demand is in the late afternoon on hot, sunny summer days. So solar is able to substitute for fossil fuel peaker plants, reducing demand from the grid.